That really sucks, I’m sorry you had to go through that
It really sucks that people can be so ignorant and intolerant. I’m happy you were able to figure yourself out in the end though, in spite of those horrible enbyphobic people.

I’m done with this conversation I think, I’m not in a great place and I don’t want to keep mentally going over this stuff. I don’t have any hard feelings, we’re all under attack with all the anti-“gender ideology” stuff and I don’t want to fight. I’m just gonna talk about one thing because it’s been a bugbear for me in a lot of different contexts and it’s something I actually like thinking and talking about lol

Ok I hope you feel better, things can be hard but hopefully in the future things can get better. I’m still holding out hope they will eventually. I’m sorry you didn’t have a good day, hopefully your day tomorrow is better

K bye

Okay, maybe that’s a thing online. Because like I said in my first comment, I’ve only heard the egg prime directive even mentioned on the internet, and before this post only by people criticizing its obvious harmfulness.

I’ve definitely heard of it happening offline, but it is true that most people only ever talk about the Egg prime directive online. Likely because most violations occur online.

I disagree, I think there’s a very definite and perceivable difference between external signs of transness and gender noncompliance. I think reducing what I’m talking about to wearing makeup or dresses or whatever (two things I don’t do btw) is completely missing the point.

I’m just going to share this because I think it illustrates how assumptions about someone’s relationship to identity can go wrong.

There’s a lot of overlap and while there are things outside of the center region that align with one but not the other, there are a lot on the middle. In real life these boundaries are way more fuzzy. So I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong but there is a lot of nuance and fuzziness that makes it much less concrete in real life.

This is a TERF talking point. TERFs say that trans people reinforce gender stereotypes and gender conformity. Please don’t talk like a TERF, I’m sure you can make your points without borrowing their rhetoric.

I’m not trying to say that trans people enforce gender stereotypes, I apologize if I came off as trying to say that but I’m not. I am saying that Egging as a behavior, especially the aggressive variety does. I have edited the original to clarify what I mean and I apologize for any miscommunication.

And I said cis supremacy, not cisnoramtivity, for a reason. Those are different concepts. Withholding observable information about someone’s relationship to gender (a very different thing from anything to do with identity) concerns me more for how it frames cisness as superior than how it treats cisness as the norm. Although both are bad, one seem much more significant to me in this context, and I specified for a reason.

Again you speak about it like it is concrete, when it is only an assumption. That is the core root of problems in egg culture. Assumptions that could be correct, but also could just as easily be wrong. Since at the end of the day other people don’t know us the way we know ourselves.

This post is literally the first time I’ve ever heard of egg stuff affecting those groups specifically. If it’s really a widespread issue that sucks, but I kinda hate the “egg” concept to begin with. This post upset me because it reminded me of stuff from my own life I still haven’t totally gotten over, maybe I shouldn’t have even commented since it involves communities and culture that I’m not a part of. But as you’ve presented it, the egg prime directive reads as just doing what cis society already does, and throwing unaware but visible trans people to the wolves.

It is a very big problem that largely goes unnoticed unfortunately. Speaking about your concern, the Egg Prime Directive in its charitable form is significantly different than what you describe. Since under that being supportive and educating people on the existence of gender identities and making them feel safe is allowed and even encouraged. It is not the same as sitting back and doing nothing. It is supporting them, making them aware but not taking away their autonomy.

Yes, it does. And all of society is arguing that trans people are cis, all the time, to all of us. And it hurts! Which means that making an argument in the other direction from time to time saves lives.

Except it isn’t an argument in the other direction, it is by in large an argument to allow people to have autonomy over their identities and identification, and to support them by giving them as much information as possible to help them discover themselves on their own. It does not mean ignoring them or keeping them in the dark. Not in the slightest. Maybe many incomplete or uncharitable interpretations have said or implied that, but it is far from the intention of having something like this. The intention is to make people feel comfortable and safe, and not like someone else is trying to arbitrate their identity for them.

You also remind me of someone I used to know, who would accuse others of being transphobic because she disagreed with them, or because they called her out on things that are regressive and/or harmful. I’ve seen it all.

I think what a lot of people in your position fail to understand is that for someone else to challenge or debate your identity when you don’t know, or worse, are okay with or even happy with the way you currently identify can feel extremely shitty. It’s not going to necessarily make a person who’s comfortable with their gender seriously question their gender, but depending on the hostility of the egg culture and the kind of arguments people are making it can make them question reality or feel like there is something that is wrong with them. The worst cases of Egging are outright gaslighting, and torment. One hallmark of it is that the person being egged doesn’t have a say in it or a way to formally get out of it.

It also doesn’t target cis people either. See a lot of people in your position think it’s a trans vs. cis thing, but it isn’t. It almost explicitly targets Gender-Non-conforming people. That also includes people who are nonbinary, genderfluid, transmasc. People who might be seen in these situations as some form of trans-in-denial. When they aren’t even cis to begin with. Maybe you think that’s different but the kind of egging you’re talking about, based on external ““signs”” or presentation doesn’t discriminate, it catches all GNC people in the net, especially those who are stealth or otherwise not openly Trans/NB/Genderfluid.

Now to say it’s to fight cisnormitivity is laughable to me, and many other people to be honest, because gender stereotypes and gender conformity is one of the most cisnormative things there is out there. Think about it, the idea that only girls wear makeup, or dresses, or can act/dress cute, that isn’t something that we stand for. Yet it is the backbone of that kind of egging.

Edit: I want to clarify that I’m in no way trying to imply that trans people are enforcing gender stereotypes. I am trying to point out that the act of egging people based on gender presentation and non-conformity is enforcing those stereotypes, as if to imply that someone dressing or acting a particular way means they are that gender. I’m not saying that trans people are enforcing gender stereotypes. Quite the opposite. My criticism is toward Egging as a behavior.

And I’m sorry but, because of all that, I genuinely believe that the “egg prime directive” kills people.

It makes me wonder how many Nonbinary, Genderfluid, or even transmasc people have also been killed by unfounded egging. By the aggressive presumption of their gender identity, making them feel bad or invalid and not feeling like the world accepts them. I’m Agender, I’ve gone through this before and I know what I’m taking about. Having someone argue to you that you are something that you aren’t sucks ass. Invalidation sucks, who knew.

If you actually did that makes it even worse. Disagreement itself isn’t bad faith, but spreading lies is, going for the most uncharitable interpretation (including intentional misrepresentation) absolutely is.

You missed the mark so much that I don’t think you read what I wrote in either case, and/or this is the most uncharitable, bad faith interpretation you could think of. Trying to smear me and the topic at hand as well as going extremely far off the rails.

There are many uncharitable readings of the Egg Prime Directive and this one you came up with is very high on the list, and honestly, this comes off as extremely disrespectful when the only thing you are asked to do is to not directly challenge or debate someone else on their gender identity as if you have the right to somehow arbitrate who they are and how they identify. That’s it, it doesn’t say anything else about not discussing transness or queerness with them, or denying them access to information. In fact I literally said:

respectful support and education is NOT Egging, and is freely allowed by the Egg prime directive, if not explicitly encouraged

This part about denying information to people is a bad faith argument that people made up to paint the idea of having rules for basic levels or respect in someone’s labels or pronouns as if it’s a bad thing, and it’s honestly a pretty disgusting lie at that.

Hi can you explain precisely how the Egg prime directive is “willfully withholding information”, because from how you explained it it seems you did not read anything that I wrote about it, and instead chose to give it the most uncharitable interpretation that you could think of.

Just for clarification how it was laid out doesn’t prevent or intend to stop people from sharing information, it intends to stop harmful behaviors like “Sweetie you’re definitely an egg, no one who’s a boy would ever want to dress and act like that”, you know blatant gatekeeping. Though maybe you think that standing up against someone or debating their identity in such a way constitutes that, in which case this argument is futile because you are arguing for the very thing many of us here do indeed find reminiscent if not straight up transphobic in nature, that is to say intentionally misgendering someone or dismissing or debating their identification.

Here’s the thing about egging, while I do see the ability for people to grow and change from their mistakes, the same could be said about any mistakes, including ‘polite transphobia’ i.e. “I’m okay with trans people but I wish they wouldn’t try to force it on kids” that kind of shit. Now this behavior isn’t excusable even though they may learn from it, and similar “Boys don’t want to dress like girls, if a boy wants to she must be a girl because that isn’t cis behavior” rhetoric ends up being gatekeeping and invalidating as well.

One could argue that these people might mean well with their statements and not fully understand the implication of what they are saying, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And frankly it’s not worth it to excuse these kinds of toxicity, it creates a toxic space where people are able to question or debate other people’s identities in ways that are invalidating or harmful. They do have the opportunity to learn which is why I am explaining the Egg Prime Directive, but the people who hear this, give it an uncharitable interpretation, then violate it blatantly need the stick. If not for them for the rest of the community who doesn’t want to and shouldn’t need to tolerate being called an egg for being NB or GNC.

Ultimately that way to “try to show people how to be supportive without invalidating others’ identities” is to educate them like what I am doing right now. But since people get hurt when identities aren’t respected, the level of flexibility they will be afforded to mistakes or noncompliance must me minimal, if even present at all.

Can we please not go around assuming someone else’s gender due to presentation? You have a history of violating the Egg prime directive and invalidating other people and you need to stop.

I kind of agree, the comments about masturbating to one’s self are a bit gross and kind of feel like they are fetishizing trans people, not cool people, not cool.