I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
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Taking martial arts classes (specifically for me, Brazilian jiu jitsu). Coincidentally i met my current girlfriend there, but you shouldn’t expect to meet women there. Rather, it’s a way to stop thinking about women for two hours. I realized that back then my mind was constantly thinking non-stop if i’m attractive to women, what women like, how i can get one, etc. It’s those thought loops that make interaction so painful.
Literally anything that can get your mind off of women. Hot take; I wouldn’t advise going to a gym though, because still then you’re thinking about how to become more attractive by becoming fit. The goal is to work out to take your mind off things. Martial arts is perfect for this: you physically work out, and your mind is focused on your opponent.
Yo, just want to say: good on you and good advice. I think you nail the problem with the constant thoughts thing, and that also explains why so many people will talk about how they met someone after they “stopped looking”.
The bird will never land on your ship if you constantly stand guard to catch it; instead improve your ship and sail into warmer waters, the bird will land while you are not looking.
-cgp grey
I am not a current or ex incel—I came from the front page out of curiosity—but I feel the need to weigh in on this.
I have a black belt in a mixed martial art, I’ve been active in it for many years as a student and as a teacher, and I strongly feel that martial arts can offer a positive improvement to just about every person.
I joined martial arts because I was severely depressed going through a divorce and custody battle; I was going from work to the bar and then home. My life felt meaningless and I very literally woke up one day and realized that if I didn’t change something I was going to kill myself. I joined a local dojo that day.
Martial arts is special. It certainly gives you a place to vent out some frustrations in a safe, productive way… but if you find yourself a good dojo it can be so much more.
Martial arts boosted my confidence massively; it made me feel better about myself and who I am by giving me regular positive interactions with many other people. Belts are earned from hard work, and the experience of being handed that next rank provides a measurable improvement to guide you.
Eventually you start to be the upper belt and get to guide newer people through the same benefits you’ve seen, which feels great. If you go as far as me you may get to stand in front of the class as an expert and feel the healthy respect of a group of people, earned through dedication and the relationships you have formed with them.
Martial arts made me a better person, and better man, a better father, and helped me live a more well rounded and happy life.
Normally I end this little rant there, but if you are an incel and you are looking to get out I will add one more benefit: women go to class too, and if you want positive role model women to help break you out of a cycle of negativity I can think of no better example than an upper-belt woman who you can interact with in a structured environment. Most people in a dojo are pretty chill and happy to help, they also tend to have high confidence in the upper ranks and aren’t looking to prove anything anymore. It’s a pretty fantastic way to form new friendships that will challenge everything the incel community has convinced you is true.
Not a martial artist here, but I would think the fact that everyone is in a basic uniform in many martial arts also makes it less intimidating for someone with body image issues who feels them especially strongly in front of women. No one is dressed attractively or provocatively in the sort of outfits people wear when doing martial arts. They’re not designed to look sexy. They’re a pretty good gender equalizer in terms of appearance.
I’ve never been an incel but I’ve always sympathised because I feel like I easily could have become one. Seeing a therapist and learning the basics of Cognitive Bias Therapy is what I attribute to helping me out of a lot of those ‘thought loops’.
It’s nice hearing stories about people who’ve escaped it.
You should strength your muscles before doing martial arts anyway
You do not need to pre train to join a martial arts gym as a rookie/white belt
Why did my muscle get hurt then?
Your muscles can get hurt working out too, you just gotta learn to preform in your own capabilities, or you were hurt by an asshole.
I changed my gender.
“If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.”
Escape incel culture with this one simple trick! ™
Femcel now then?
I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.
One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!
I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.
In my very limited experience, the one characteristic that seems pretty universal to incels is the inability to have casual, no pressure small talk with anyone, especially with those of the opposite gender (or whatever gender you like).
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
It seems like incels, or at least Tate-holes, treat every conversation as a challenge with the reward being sex.
Just be friends with people. Who fucking cares if you end up in a romantic relationship, allow yourself to form close intimate friendships that aren’t physical.
Awesome! I scored 6 conversation points, I can redeem my punch card for sex now!
Oh you didn’t hear about the pricing update… Sex costs 15 now, but you can redeem 6 for a hug if you ask nicely.
I got asked out by a girl in high school I barely knew after feeling unlovable for most of my teens. I became fast friends with her female friends and it kinda helped me realize that women are just people.
Later I broke up with her but stayed friends with everyone. Eventually I started dating one of her other friends, and we’re still together 6 years later. Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship, and the best way to get girl friends is to just hang around them and do normal friend stuff.
Later I found out that the only reason I got asked out in the first place was because of a coin flip. If I lost that 50/50 I might still be an incel weirdo. Weird to think about.
The coin flip, chance concept is something I’ve dealt with too. I was fast going down the incel path in my mid 20s. One of my managers at work was given two tickets to a speed-dating event, his mother told him he “needs to find a girlfriend” so she can “be a grandmother”. He didn’t want to go. We were having fun talking to him about how awful a speed dating event would turn out to be.
He said he would go if one of his friends came with him to the event (afterall, he had two tickets). He called so many of his friends, most were already in a relationship, or were busy that day, or just rejected the invitation. Then he started asking workmates at work, similar responses. Eventually he approached me, he knew I was single, knew I didn’t have social life, knew I never spoke to women, he said it would be a good opportunity for me to put myself out there. My first inclination was to say “no way”, “absolutely not”. I’m not attractive and a bit autistic, I don’t make a good first impression to anyone. The thought of awkwardly making small talk for 5 minutes at a time with 12 different women who were judging me based on first impressions, was the absolute opposite of my idea of a good time.
Then I thought about it as a chance to help my colleague, he wasn’t going to go unless I went with him, I wanted him to go, he wanted me to go, plus it was at a new bar that I’d heard good things about. At the very least I’d get to have some drinks with my work friend.
The event was about as awkward and anxiety-inducing as I expected for the most part. Most women were much older than me, and clearly had zero interest in chatting to me. So I took the pressure off myself, I wasn’t there to find a girlfriend, I didn’t buy the ticket, I was there to support my friend. There were two women around my own age, who were not bad looking and I actually managed to hold a conversation with (the beers helped). At the end of the event you could write down the name of anyone you felt a connection with and the organisers would find mutual matches.
Next day I find out I matched with one of the women I’d indicated. I got her contact details, and started talking to her via emails and SMS for a few months, getting to know each other better. Again I didn’t put any pressure on myself, I didn’t know this person, I didn’t ask her to match with me, it was a “easy come, easy go” situation with zero stakes. After two months we eventually went on a real date, and turns out we were a great match. Two years later we were engaged. Today is our 10th wedding anniversary, and we have two kids.
After we started dating I found out that she only went to the speed dating event as a support person to her friend. She didn’t go in looking for a relationship either.
That got me thinking about the odds of this happening. If my colleague didn’t get given tickets from his mother, if any of his other friends weren’t busy and went with him instead, if I didn’t agree to go along with him, if she didn’t go along with her friend for support, if I didn’t write down her name at the end, if she didn’t write down my name. The mind boggles. She told me it was a 50/50 whether she wrote down my name, just like you mentioned.
When people say dating is a “numbers game”, that doesn’t need to be interpreted in a predatory or creepy way. I think this is what it is about, the chances of finding a connection with someone really is a chance, but the one thing you can do is find a way to make that chance non-zero.
I love this story, thanks for sharing it.
Having good female friends can absolutely make a huge difference. I thought women were these nebulous things that I didn’t know how to talk to. Turns out they’re the exact same. There are some that like sports, there are others that like nerdy things. You can’t just put people into boxes and say “you are a woman so you are like X”. They’re just like men, with different traits, and you can be best friends with women even if there is no intention to ever sleep with them.
Hell some of my best friends were women, and after they uturned me about being an incel they started going to bat to help me out. “Hey we invited ____ along, we talked you up to them!”
I don’t think I was ever an incel, but back in 2011-12, I was being “red-pilled” on facebook. Goshdarned wimminz, they ruined everything!
The first thing I want to say is how fucking ashamed I am to have fallen for that shit back then and I’m really fucking glad I managed to get out soon-ish. Perhaps ironically, what kept my sanity intact was that I was a very common target of “real men” because the FB groups would often attack the political left and communism with some of the stupidest takes I’ve seen in my life, like “Every failed African country is communist” or “Nazism was left leaning, it’s National SOCIALISM!!!” - Younger me would see that shit, get pissed and write how wrong that was, which has led me to being banned from 2 groups back then.
Now, how did I even end up there in the first place? Well, as nearly everyone else, I suppose, it felt like I wasn’t getting what “the world” had promised me, a cis white man: a woman. I’m not bad looking, but my manners and social skill were caveman level for the most part, I rarely, if ever, thought about others, I just made rude remarks left and right because “haha fuck you”. Of course, back then, I was deluded and saw myself as a gentleman, that disconnect between my own perception and reality (aka how others saw me) no doubt played a huge part in me feeling that I was wronged, that I wasn’t getting any because of some fault within the system instead of myself. Once you’re in this mindset, seeing posts that blame women for your problems make a lot of sense. It’s not that I’m rude and deluded, it’s women that are too picky, it’s women that have terrible taste and go for “obviously low quality males”, it’s women that just want a man they can easily manipulate, etc etc.
As I always fancied myself as left leaning politically, anything that was more political than “personal”, like posts about women in the workforce (women should receive less because they’ll ALWAYS get pregnant!), I’d just ignore and think they were stretching things a bit.
SOOO, I got out of that. My recommendation for anyone that wants to get out of that mindset, the first thing I tell you is: stop fucking following and taking in ANY such incel content. Literally block everything that can remind you of that shit. That’s step one. You don’t need that in your life, you don’t need to feel like you’re in that specific group of losers. There are many better groups of “losers” to be part of
Second, reassess yourself and compare how you view yourself vs reality, how others look at you. In a 10 second interaction with a random person on the street, what would they likely think of you? Any answer that is too extreme on the positive or negative means you’re very likely deluded as I was with myself.
Third, and perhaps most important, when it comes to having any relationship, amorous or not, is: what makes you interesting? “Nothing”? Then you better work on something, anything. Just because you’re into nerd shit doesn’t mean you have to be a nerd shit. I love anime, I love videogames, boardgames, tabletop RPGs, but I never undersell them as nerd shit, I always prop those things as these amazing hobbies I want to SHARE with others, and I’m always 100% ok with people that don’t like them or don’t want to try them (the latter mostly because of all the bad rep thanks to toxic nerd shits)
Adding to the “what makes you interesting”, expand your horizons a bit. Try something new and different, look for any group activities that are cheap or free near your job or your home. You are not the things you like, the things you like are part of what makes you you. You change, your tastes change, you grow up, don’t think current you is too precious to change.
First, I just wanted to say I am very proud of you. This is all tough to admit, and I really hope you share your story more. The fact you got yourself out is huge, and could really change things for others suffering from incel-dom.
Second, “You are not the things you like, the things you like are part of what makes you you. You change, your tastes change, you grow up, don’t think current you is too precious to change.” is a pretty great line.
Thanks. I can’t even say that my life was shit back then, I always had a comfortable lower middle class environment, but due to a number of less than ideal family interactions and lack of self awareness (or maybe, just a lack of general maturity), I ended up in that hole. Calling women bitches and every other type of misogynistic name felt like a relief, that I was getting back at who wronged me. Again, when you’re in that kind of deluded mindset, it makes sense. I got a girlfriend around 3 years after leaving those groups and I told her about this dark time I had, and I’m grateful that she could see from my actions that I wasn’t that piece of shit anymore, she barely even believed that I ever got there.
I understand that not everyone will get out by themselves, some people will need external help, but anyone that feels like that something doesn’t feel quite right in one specific post or another, there’s hope they might get out of that. Like I said, the main thing that drove me away was that their general, ass-sourced toxicity turned against me because I was a stinky commie, but there were other stinky commies that ate that up and preferred to keep seeing women as inferior.
On that line, the last part is what I felt a lot about myself, I often feared that I would “change too much” or that I “wouldn’t be myself” anymore, completely ignoring that I was already different from whatever I was 4 years before that, which was also different from 4 years prior, and so on. Small epiphanies that helped me make sense of myself.
Hey I just wanted to say I think this is a beautiful post, and I’m sorry I somehow checked it off without seeing it. Thank you so much for sharing this, I hope it helps someone going through what you were.
I took estrogen.
I was like fuck them they are so pretty 😭 Now I am pretty yayI feel that “I’m not pretty” stuff too!
But wary of taking estrogen and going with transitioning for social reasons and also because I kinda want to remain sexually active and keep a solid dick lol
So, crossdressing and some makeup it is!
I’d kill myself sooner than see myself in the mirror as an old man one day. It’s pretty easy indicator. Old woman - yeah whatever could be nice, old man - no fucking way brr
And social things, yeah well this is admittedly something that is problematic but I am a firm believer that if you are confident enough, you can get away with just about anything.
I am just me, Emmie, hello. Nothing less or more and the rest anyone can make up in their heads as they see fit. Not my business
Lucked out and made (and still have) a great friend who’d always call out my bullshit and also talk through what was wrong with my mindset and thoughts. God, I was insufferable
I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.
How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.
It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.
Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.
Took a flight overseas.
Thailand? Japan?
'Nam.
