cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/26211900
[Transphobia Warning] Nutomic’s Stance on Transgender People
Update 2:
Why do they go through the effort of banning people from individual communities when site banning should be enough? It honestly just comes across as vindictive.
Just like when hexbear.net called them out on different terrible takes (ie what counts as csam and other awful mods)
I just got banned from !linux@lemmy.ml for posting that screenshot
Welcome to !linux@programming.dev
general rule of thumb is that if you see a .ml community there’s always a better one on another domain even if there’s not.
I will be joining in :)
Linux doesn’t seem like the correct community for it but it could’ve been deleted it’s so weird they would ban you for that
I mean to say that I posted the screenshot from the original post
I know that I shouldn’t, but…
Off-topic: why Nutomic's comment is idiotic
It’s a big false dichotomy.
As a class, the bourgeoisie only cares about staying in power. Everything else from its PoV is fluff, to be situationally used or opposed.
And that applies to the trans cause. The bourgeoisie is weakly opposed to trans rights because they get in the way of reproductive labour (trans people are less likely to have children, so they aren’t pumping out as many new proletariats as cis people do). However that opposition is not strong enough to make the bourgeoisie ignore pink money, since pink money is still money and money is still power under capitalism.
It’s also worth noting that the bourgeoisie doesn’t just compete for power with the other two classes (proletariat and petit-bourgeoisie) - it also competes internally. And for that, different factions within the class will seek external support from different groups, and align their discourses to those.
In that situation, what do you expect to see? The bourgeoisie flinging back and forth between lip service towards LGBTQ+ people+communities, and a transphobic discourse. Rainbow-wash something today (it’s a cheap and effective marketing tactic!), go transphobic tomorrow; business A plops up a trans flag, business B tears it down. Flush, repeat.
And, well, it’s exactly what you see here.
I also encourage specifically Trotskyists to read this text, as it explains way better than I could how the transgender agenda and class struggle are not orthogonal in nature. (Stalinists: be warned that Sybil Davis rambles quite a bit against Stalinism.)
And… on a moral level, let’s be frank - you need to be inconsistent like a puddle of jelly, to be a communist but not defend trans rights. At the end of the day, what a good communist should defend is freedom of oppression; and what are those LGBTQ+ activists saying, if not “we don’t want to be oppressed based on gender, sex and sexuality”? It’s all about human rights dammit.
On-topic: I think that the “forums side of the Fediverse” (nowadays mostly Lemmy and Kbin/Mbin) would benefit immensely from additional platforms; that’s why I’m excited for projects like PieFed and SubLinks. I am grateful for the Lemmy software but I can’t help but see the people in charge of the project as a liability.And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don’t, they suck at it). Relying on a single platform is like putting all your eggs within the same basket, once that basket goes down everything breaks.
And they would still be a liability even if they had any skill building a healthy community (they don’t, they suck at it).
I agree with you here (and generally the whole post, glad to have found it here). While I think they do suck at community building (and might even admit to as much or defend the need for it) I would add that from my perspective the amount of reflexive dog-piling and harsh criticism hurled their way just for or triggered by their being communists/tankies has probably made it pretty difficult. And unfortunately and problematically so I’d say. Now such may just be the way things are and it had to be navigated if they were ever to build a better community … sure. And being open communists may then as just a matter of practical reality hinder their community building capacities. But I feel like it’s worth acknowledging.
Also, their position of opposing a somewhat consumeristic culture of having a demanding relationship with open source developers is also worth recognising. I wasn’t receptive to those arguments in the past, but have since come around to it TBH.
And, the way they’ve approached federation and presenting their own instance has enabled the lemmy-verse to not have a single monolithic community or culture. They chose before the migration to not push their instance as the flagship and never seemed to want that. They always promoted other instances, and have always federated their own instance fairly widely. So in a way, they’ve ensured that they didn’t have to be the primary community builders for the lemmy space, and I think that has paid off rather well given the relatively small user size here (apart from lemmy . world being too big).
I don’t rule out that a lot of the complains are motivated by red scare, instead of saner stuff. And I’m also genuinely grateful for not making
mlthe flagship instance, it would’ve made any problem worse.However I think that, to be a good open source developer, you need to be at least decent at community building. Because a good part of that development is to gather support so other people can submit you code.
This is the best stated argument I’ve seen by far for alts for Lemmy. Still, I don’t see anything wrong with the statements made being neutral. Not everyone is going to be an ally, but that does not make them an enemy. This post smells like someone trying very poorly thought out psyops instead of simply making their own thing. Lemmy is written in the benchmark of coding languages. The alts appear to target the least secure convenient high level languages. Based on what I’ve seen, I would be quite hesitant to run my own instance on one versus the other. I’ve seen a ton of whining here and there, but I haven’t seen anyone that has an answer to why they have not submitted pull requests for Lemmy. I find that most concerning. There appears to be a desire to steal Lemmy. I find that deeply disturbing. I left for awhile once before because of similar nonsense. If some one can do better, great, go prove it on your own. If your confidence in your abilities does not exceed envy of what already exists, I already feel completely uninterested in the alternative. There is a lot of nonsense about politics that ultimately have nothing to do with the platform. It feels like deeply destabilizing drama that makes this place toxic.
There is still thinly plausible deniability about the psyops nature of this post, but it is too strong of a pattern for me to ignore as chance. The original message chain was not posted. One side of a conversation proves nothing whatsoever and making conclusions about intent without full context is a fool’s folly. The consistent jump to Lemmy alts in comments shows a decided intent and bias.
For context, here’s the original message chain. The discourse conveyed there isn’t just neutral, it’s dismissive - in that chain Nutomic does play down the trans issues and needs.
While we could argue that the original user is jumping at the gun to some extent (and falling into the same idiotic false dichotomy as Nutomic himself), it’s hard to claim that she’s psy ops, after a quick glance of her profile. She simply sounds vocal about the issues that she cares about. I think that it’s the same deal with the OP of this thread, it doesn’t look like psy ops for me.
I ain’t no programmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt: while performance is important I don’t think that it’s the whole deal. One of the benefits of Python is that a lot of people know it, can read its code for issues, and can contribute with the project. (This is not a dichotomy, though - I think that an alternative coded mostly in Python, with Rust on critical parts [to address performance and security] would be the best of all worlds.)
But even another codebase in Rust would do great in my book. Besides the whole deal of relying too much onto a a single basket, every new alternative would bring on new ideas, and try to tackle the same problems in different ways. Kbin for example tried to mix microblogging in. And oddly enough it would be a great way to shut up all those “waah devz r commiez!” complains (“ah, you don’t use software made for commies? Use [alternative] then.”), while still allowing them to reap the benefits through federation and open source.
Honest question: Why does it matter if he’s a transphobe when choosing which Fediverse software to use? The software is FOSS and anyone can make their own instance. I don’t understand why his social views outside of sharing the software and protecting it from becoming proprietary matters when deciding what Fediverse software to use.
I’m not arguing my stance. I really want to understand what I might be missing.
When people are successful, sometimes their ideas are too. They become a sort of standard, or justified. While I speak only for myself, I think some folks feel like if this guy’s projects are successful he could use that success to oppres people. It happened to fluffy JK Rowling.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining. What’s the relevant story with JK Rowling?
JK uses her platform (harry potter fame) to denigrate and oppress trans women (probably more). She regularly engages anti trans exchanges on public twitter. Considering the reach HP has for children, it could give her considerable chance to promote bigotry. Look up TERF.
Honest question: Why does it matter if he’s a transphobe when choosing which Fediverse software to use?
- Because some people have actually financially supported him. I’m not trans, but I would be devastated to know that my money went to feed someone who wants to destroy me.
- I already have trouble convincing transgender people in my social circle that Lemmy as a software is safe for them to use even with the variety of trans-inclusive servers like yours, and will be safe and inclusive in the future.
A great example of (2) is the fate of PolyMC. Thankfully, the other developers forked it into Prism, but transphobia put that whole project in jeopardy for a bit.
The software is FOSS and anyone can make their own instance.
IMO that’s why I’m not immediately dropping my account and running for the hills, but it’s still not good. Most people don’t have the technical skills or the interest in learning them to run their own instance.
I really want to understand what I might be missing.
IMO it’s that even though he does not personally control how Lemmy instances are run, and even though we do have a good degree of robustness to transphobia because the software is FOSS, it is still both morally and technically ill-advised to have a transphobe at the helm of an open-source software project.
Because he’s the developer. He can easily change a line of code to exploit users and servers across the fediverse. Sure, some may notice immediately, but others won’t.
Because he’s the developer. He can easily change a line of code to exploit users and servers across the fediverse.
This can be done by anyone, and applies to any platform. It’s not a problem unique to Lemmy.
I also don’t see how transphobia and backdooring everyone are at all related.
Right. Exactly. That’s why who develops things matters. Conduct at a project level dictates what comes of the things developed. The fact that this platform is developed by transphobes is a big FUCKING deal and is why I have hope for PieFed and Sublinks because they have actual factual solidarity and decency as core values.
The fact that this platform is developed by transphobes is a big FUCKING deal
Not really. Usually the issue is the platform devs also control the instances/servers but that isn’t the case here.
The code isn’t transphobic. The code is code. We shouldn’t reject perfectly good code because we don’t like who wrote it. That’s just giving the software solely to the people who do to the detriment of everyone else.
You cloud give mbin a try its developers are nice people :) Although there is only one app for it (interstellar)
When you guys implement https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues/486 I might switch.
I’m not the biggest fan the Mbin interface (that’s mostly a taste issue, nothing wrong with it per se), but that feature could be enough for me to give it another try
Give it a thumbs up so we know what to prioritize 😊
I’ve been focusing on the backend and federation stuff. But I promise that we will implement it this year :)
Great, I just did!
Do you have downvotes disabled?
Nope. That is not yet possible on mbin. Dislikes are received but not sended. I was holding back on implementing sending dislikes because that can’t be configured yet.
If there are instances with downvoted disabled in the future, I’ll consider switching.
I find people are way too easy to downvote on lemmy so I think it’s nice to be on an instance where it is disabled.
@FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone It’s already a feature request on GitHub, you can put thumbs up under it here
https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues/482
@xnx@slrpnk.net @BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de
It is in the works :)
Not sent to other instances? I am on Mbin and see downvotes.
Yes you see the down votes from othwr instances, but these other instances cannot see your downvotes
Thank you for explaining!
Sure thing 😇
I have asked before and I am curious. I do not mean this to crap on people who want an app but I wonder why an app is a desired thing. I use Mbin and Lemmy on mobile completely through my browser and I’m having a good time with both.
Different strokes for different folks
I understand that. I want to know specifically what attracts these people with different tastes to an app, and what makes them not want to use it in the browser. I generally don’t judge on taste but I do get curious about why peoples’ tastes are what they are.
I always have the same thoughts when people say they use browsers. Apps are (in my experience) much more practical to use. Also, I think browsers are an ok option on a computer, but not mobile.
In my experience Reddit had to be used with an app if not on desktop, but the Fediverse on mobile feels like the Reddit app (I’m one of the few people who never had trouble with the official app, it was functional for me, so this is not meant as an insult at all. I left and came here over the API stuff only) so I have no need to switch. Much more mobile-friendly. Using the Fediverse on desktop feels a lot like the mobile experience but wider.
Ok, let’s talk about Lemmy specifically. The app I’m currently using (Connect) has so many great features like swipe gestures that improve browsing tremendously. Just in this thread, there was a link that I had to use the browser to view that had two images that I needed to zoom in to view and then zoom out to read the other comments. This is something you don’t deal with when using an app because it’s usually optimized for easier viewing.
But at the end of the day, this is about habits and what you feel most comfortable with.
Have you ever tried an app and thought, nah I don’t like it?
Sync for Lemmy is the reason I’m using Lemmy over mbin right now. The *bin experience isn’t bad per se, but native apps just feel a lot nicer to use on mobile.
I don’t use any apps on desktop, mostly because there aren’t any that look and feel as smooth and complete as the Android apps do.
Also, I feel a bit hesitant as quite a lot of the smap I see seems to come in from *bin servers. Could be moderator actions not federating well? I just need to know for sure that there aren’t any spam scripts I need to start evading after a switch.
I did try out kbin very quick a year ago but the difference in CPU usage for basic federation and browsing was quite large. With Lemmy now consistently using 15% of a CPU core on federation, I dread to think what *bin would do to my poor CPU.
Lastly, I’ve heard some pretty bad experiences about *bin and database issues from people who run both services. Dunno if that’s been cleared out yet, but if I ever switch over, I’m going to need to make sure that’s been fixed.
I was probably the most prominent person who runs both and had database issues with k/mbin. I am happy to say that those are well behind me, largely because of the skill and patience of the Mbin team helping me resolve them.
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Mbin performs quite well. I just applied the most recent update which removed mercure and it’s very fast now.
Nice
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Yeah, this is just manufactured drama. The screenshots showing what preceded his comment show the whole thing to clearly be bait for the purpose of creating drama.
Bullshit. BULLSHIT. The context is “hey this tool helps keep trans people safe, any chance we can integrate it or make the platform work with it?” And the response was that its made up. Fucking. That’s not baiting. That’s a feature request
I’m wondering if the people upvoting Anon have actually seen the context. There was no baiting involved. Only an explanation on why the feature was wanted.
Funny how when others are called transphobic, it’s all hands on deck, no taking a moment to reconsider the facts or the context.
But for some reason, this particular example requires caution? If you know Desalines, or the lemmy devs themselves, you’ll know that transphobia is just the tip of the iceberg of their extremism. Have a look for yourself: !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
It’s quite possible those tankies are the very same people excusing his transphobia, they already simp for Castro and Che, who rounded up gay people and put them in “totally not death camps” for their “mandatory service” where they were starved and worked and beaten to death, and they totally excuse him for that, too.
Yeah yeah, “later he said he was sorry he had all those gay people killed in concentration camps.” Uh huh.
i mean they love stalin who genocided the Ukrainians. soo
Che wasn’t involved in those camps at all. And not only did Castro apologize, but ended up helping push some of the most liberal LGBTQ laws on the books in any country, including the US.
You excuse the US for all sorts of stuff, I’m sure. Reagan ignored a pandemic, all your founders were slave owners, hell, your current President is helping with a genocide and I’ve seen people excuse that all over Lemmy.
And for the record, even the tankie communities on Lemmy, like hexbear, disagree with nutomic’s comments.
I’ve said before that I could add piefed support to Interstellar (it already had Lemmy and mbin support). The only thing I need is an api.
This is very disappointing. I’m glad lemmy is federated and open source, so that I don’t have to endorse or support every single view of the creator to use it.
Nutomic’s view is very misguided. The section of the bourgeouisie that expresses support for trans people often do so out of opportunism (though some probably genuinely support it They’re human after all). The fact that transphobia is still rampant should be proof of the lack of an “agenda”. And what is this agenda about anyways? Acceptance? Or are people really still thinking that there’s a push to turn cis people trans the same way we have done the reverse since forever?
The only thing that surprises me is that anyone is surprised.
I don’t intend that to be snarky, more jokey. But, yeah, it’s pretty much common knowledge. Not the first time they’ve expressed unpleasant opinions on the subject, though not quite this bluntly. There was a minor kerfluffle over it not too long after the reddit exodus.
And it isn’t unexpected tbh, that’s a pretty bog standard tankie take, if perhaps a tad more trope filled.
To me, lemmy is kinda like a less important version of the Apollo missions. You put up with someone unpleasant because they can get the job done, until things get to the point it can be done without them. German scientists, tankie devs. Yeah, yeah, von Braun wasn’t a “real” nazi; whatever.
At some point, either lemmy gets enough movement to get a less extreme team on board, it gets forked, or something else comes along.
Genuinely curious … what exactly is the problematic stance here?
Is it that they think the boxer was a biological male and therefore trans female? Or is it referring to then as a biological male (which seems justifiably politically incorrect to me but not heinous in trying to point out that the Olympic/bougousie can’t be that transphobic, could honestly be a language problem).
Or is it the statement that the bourgeoisie aren’t trans phobic?
“The transgender topic” is already weird as a statement (kinda like “the gay agenda”, it comes off as only considering it as a political statement?), and “clearly promoted by the bourgeoisie” implies it’s bad.
“As far as […] lgbt flags on government buildings”: it’s… not far at all? Again, weird statement.
“Biological male” is both wrong for the boxer (she’s cis) and generally used for transphobia (trans women on HRT aren’t biological males by any reasonable definition). It’s also generally conspiratorial.
Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.
Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.
Yea that was my impression too. AFAIU, they’re from Europe so there may be a language barrier too. Don’t know how true that is though of course.
Otherwise, tangentially, as far as all the anti-tankie sentiments that may have been prompted by this are concerned, I’ve only seen good culture from them on trans issues.
EDIT: and thanks for the reply!
The idea that trans rights are some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy.
I personally don’t see that in the statement … at all actually. Maybe they believe that, I don’t know … but I’d need to seem more to believe that.
From the context of the conversation, it seems more like the inversion, where they doubt that transphobia is some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy given that trans-rights are getting support from enough parts of mainstream society.
Which IMO, as I’ve said in other comments, is a rather superficial angle on the whole thing (from both sides of the posted conversation). There’s undoubtedly a lot of transphobic energy in mainstream society, with plenty of influential people being shitty people about it, but whether it is or isn’t some conspiracy or whatever doesn’t seem like a helpful way of looking at it.
I could of course be wrong and ignorant. It just seems to me like the malice v incompetence dynamic, where most people can be vile for pretty base reasons, without culture playing a big role but without it having to be some conspiracy or organised effort (as the person nutomic was responding to was claiming)
I’ll keep posting about Sublinks as long as Lemmy is primarily developed by people whom suck
How is Sublinks development going? Are they getting close to Lemmy as far as features go? Any stable instances yet?
I’m aware of the project, but haven’t been following it closely the past few months.
I’m on the Matrix space, things are still moving.
No release date yet, and it’s summer so people are on annual leave
One instance admin said they were switching any day now like a month ago 😂.
Woww wtf!!
I thought you mistyped PixelFed lol. Good to see there’s another Lemmy clone like sublinks.
@xnx PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented. It’s still awesome without a native app because it’s fast and doesn’t really need direct access to hardware to do its thing.
Tech detail: PieFed is a Python app using Flask and server-side rendered HTML templates. It is super fast as there’s no heavy Javascript framework being used. The maintainer has written about how PieFed is developed with poor internet connections in mind: https://piefed.social/post/6102
How is the server performance of Piefed compared to Lemmy? Python isn’t exactly known for its speedy web frameworks.
@skullgiver Good Q. Some thoughts… a standard Python, Flask, PostgreSQL app can handle hundreds of requests per second on a single machine. Any bottlenecks - Lemmy or PieFed - would probably not be at the language yet. For example, Lemmy’s poor performance when I looked ~1 year ago came from a bizarre disregard for things like relational DB query optimisation, HTTP caching, and how the stock frontend lemmy-ui fetched data. Yet Lemmy is written in Rust which is known for speed.
PieFed won’t have an app any time soon due to the way it’s implemented.
Why is that? They seem pretty similar on the surface, so I’m curious differences exist under the hood which would preclude app development.
There isn’t anything stopping this. It’s just that no one is working on an app. And there isn’t any API implemented (yet) for an app to hook in to and fetch posts and comments. Both could be programmed. Someone could also copy the Lemmy API and use arbitrary Lemmy apps with Piefed. I think the developer is open to any of that and I’m pretty sure I read some feature request. It’s just that the focus currently is on other things. And Piefed works well as an progressive web app. You can open it in your browser and click “Add to home screen” and you’ll get an icon and a browser window that pretty much feels like an app. I’m using that and also don’t see any benefit in putting in the effort to maintain an app, when it works well as is.
Both could be programmed. Someone could also copy the Lemmy API and use arbitrary Lemmy apps with Piefed.
This seems like an interesting idea. On one hand, I could see how it could hamper development, but on the other hand, it would be nice if all of the threadiverse platforms (Lemmy, Piefed, Sublinks, Mbin?) were standardized enough that the apps could be interoperable. I think giving users multiple options for how to access and interact with the content would be good for the fediverse as a whole.
The only thing piefed needs for an app is a flask rest framework. It’d not hard
Any chance you will be able to help develop that?
Can you link to the GH issues?
There is none yet. They use codeberg not github btw
Heres an issue on lemmy api compatibility. They got far enough so some Lemmy apps already sorta work but it hasnt been completed https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/issues/13#issuecomment-1814982
Heres an issue on allowing the website to be isntalled as a PWA but help is needed on the iOS front https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/issues/179
Happy with my current instance, but the urge to try out PieFed grows… would probably mean abandoning Mbin though and Mbin is already so tiny compared to Lemmy…
Aren’t the communities more important than the platform, as you can access the communities whatever platform you use?
The developer is expressing their opinion on their instance using their software. The beauty of federation and the software he has crrated is that you can build a community that you want.you never have to interact with or his instance.
This post is drama for the sake of drama.
He receives thousands of dollars in donations to make the software. I’d rathe people start supporting software developers made by non bigots
It’s a weird place to draw the line. You probably use all kinds of products with scumbag companies and owners yet you draw the line at a guy’s Foss project which has nothing to do with his views and the project barely makes min wage yet serves tens of thousands of people.
You don’t need to withdraw your support because you already do nothing to support. Again I think you are creating drama for the sake of drama. The guy is an open Communist and you are shocked that he’s transphobic.
The guy is an open Communist and you are shocked that he’s transphobic.
Plenty of communists are not transphobic and most of the open communists I know are trans themselves.
I know I was pointing to that to show extreme views I didn’t intend to say Communists were transphobic or bad people.
I know a lot of communists are extremely progressive and tbh I thought he was to.
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Next time someone asks me what Lemmy’s like, I’ll just refer them to this post.
“And see? That’s my comment down here with the gif.”
Honestly seems dumb to me. The vast majority of lemmy is not like this at all. It all depends on what you subscribe to.
That there’s always some background radiation of Fedi drama … yea I’d agree with you on that … sad to see TBH. IMO, some just want to create drama and get tribal without actually doing anything positive.
A rant on social issues, a spin on development, and a nonchalant passive-aggressieness… Nah, that’s a lot of Lemmy. If the profile pic was a fursona, that’d be 💋👌
Hell, just look at these comments lol. You’re in denial or you’ve gotten good at ignoring it.
You’re in denial or you’ve gotten good at ignoring it.
Maybe. I’m plugged into my fair share of Fedi drama around the fediverse I’d say.
A big difference I suspect is between those who scroll All and those who rely on subscribing.
Otherwise, I don’t think this is a lemmy thing, it’s a fediverse thing. Even BlueSky. A sad trait amongst people has been exposed by alternative social … people are meaner to open source voluntary devs than big corp extractive owners.
I agree very much about Subscribing vs. All.
I hear about the lemmy.ml drama on Fediverse but my actual experience is no drama and I do not 100% know what is happening.
I also put my head in the sand and only look at my Subscribed, which includes zero politics or “this company did this awful thing”-style depressing news as I’m oversensitive and too prone to doomscrolling. I stay informed somewhere else, not on the Fediverse where people can put so many understandably upset comments that encourage me to doomscroll. And I’d imagine those types of posts, which I know to be prevalent on Local or All, attract comments from people with strong political views, which is probably part of the lemmy.ml drama. I could probably block all the politics posts with a couple community blocks, but not the miseryposting (understandable, people want to vent or post an on-topic news article, I just cannot handle it personally without doomscrolling more things like it) that attracts “and this problem was caused because of [insert politics here]” replies—so many communities are appropriate places to post news that happens to be sad, or a meme about how much your life sucks.
